After comparing the two the Springfield was built better and looked better and had better brace . And I also used a LaRue Tactical offset mount to install a SureFire M312 Vampire Scout, which produces white and IR light. But if you want range, get a longer-barreled rifle with a slower twist rate to optimize 125-grain loads. It was very easy to move quickly, and the gun always felt light. Some of these extras include a top-end self-lubricating nickel-boron trigger, suppressor-ready heavy tungsten buffer, adjustable SB Tactical SBA3 brace and forward hand stop. New Springfield Saint. HKs MP7 has never been available in any commercial form. We noticed that across all choices of ammunition the Saint produced the most velocity from each round. The 300 Blackout pistol model is no different, but few shooters miss the bells and whistles with a gun that goes bang with every trigger pull and hits the mark. A few times the bolt wouldnt lock back after firing the last round with the SilencerCo Omega 9K in place. The Springfield Armory Saint Edge PDW brings to mind a saying from Rush Limbaugh: Illustrating absurdity by being absurd. It offers, at least when compared to a standard rifle/carbine, compromised ballistics and a nearly comical appearance, and I havent done executive protection work in quite some time. The ambidextrous controls worked quite well, and the safety lever on the off hand did not interfere with the shooter, be he right-handed or left-handed. From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm. Many contend a 1:8 twist will stabilize heavy subsonic bullets. The Tread was $799.00 and the Saint was $849.00. Granted you give up some ballistic performance, but gain a gat easy to transport and, yes, conceal (say in a backpack). Handguards are now modular platforms for lights, lasers, and sights, and ambidextrous fire controls are becoming more popular as well. Built with a premium nickel boron coated trigger, forged carrier, enhanced Melonite coated carrier group and a pinned gas block, every rifle is built for ultimate reliability. To test the SIG MCX Rattler SBR as it might be used on a deployment, I added a few accessories. Elwood Shelton is an online content developer for Gun Digest. I was a big Sig fan , After buyig the 1st Tread M400 , I had the Tread 5.56 Pistol on my list , then the Tread 716I - .308 AR-10 , But when I went to buy the tread M400 5.56 pistol I looked at the Springfield Saint 300 Black out . Camp Guns: Sometimes Perfect, Other Times Not But Often Essential! But there is hope for me after seeing the new SnakeBite Tread 5.56 . Copyright 1996-2023 AR15.COM LLC. Visually, this made them less obvious. Just Got this in my e-mail . They are dead to me. Stocky's Owner Don Bitz walks David Faubion through the company's new rifle stocks for 2023. Comfortable to hold, the handguard offered the most versatility of our three rifles. The BCM Gunfighter grip provided a steeper angle than the others, including the Magpul grip found on the M400. But there are a few key reasons why the .30-caliber is better suited for compact ARs. American Shooting Centers is a public range, and placing the rifle in the racks during cease fires with the bolt locked open required care because any impact to the buttstock would release the bolt. Second Media Corp., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. Certainly, you get all the nimbleness and convenience of the configuration in 5.56. *Bullet weight measured in grains, velocity in fps by chronograph and accuracy in inches for best 5-shot groups at 50 yards. At the Impact Zone Range, our rifles shared a $420 1x20mm SIG Sauer Romeo 4b Compact Scope with a tiny 2-minute-of-angle red dot. .224 Valkyrie Small Precision Rifle Cartridge: Everything You Need to Know, Buyer Beware: Buying 'Bargain' Guns Can Be Risky. Colt Model 1861 Special Musket: What's Its Value? No, but it was never designed to be. 300 AAC Blackout. Would I want to get shot with it at 200 yards? Save my name and email to use for future comments. I put a ton of ammunition through this rifle, and everything workedtypical of the MCX series. The bottom of the grip was removable, and there were fittings to hold popular batteries such as the CR123 or AA inside. Another latecomer to AR manufacturing, Ruger has proven fast in picking up the rules of the game. The Sig Rattler is only available with a 5.5 inch barrel, in 300 Blackout or 5.56mm. It boasts the nice extra of a forward flash diverter, clearing the line of sight for fast follow-ups and target acquisition. Units specializing in covert, ship-borne or hostage-rescue operations still wanted PDWs with more powerrifle-caliber power to be exact. Caliber + 300 BLK; 5.56 NATO; 7.62x39 . Some big news for trigger pullers recently from the Civilian Marksmanship Program. Sig Sauer has really redefined the word versatility with the MCX and MPX, and it doesnt get much better than the Rattler in close quarters. When you authored this on 24 March 2020, SIG announced the 716I Tread for civilian sale which is the same rifle minus select fire, 1913 rails on the handguards 6', and an M-Lok Bayonet lug. You have entered an incorrect email address! One thing I would like to point out that seemingly even many owners of the Maxim Defense SCW and larger CQB braces and stocks dont seem to know is that you only have to use the button to collapse it. One new winner* is announced every week! I fired the PDW at both an indoor and outdoor range on a cloudy day. Type: Semi-Auto Pistol. PDWs in the modern era see most use with government security details where large rifles are not needed. Concerning these small-but-potent arms, they're pretty dang slick in 5.56 NATO, but sing when chambered 300 Blackout. But upon closer inspection, we noticed that the safety and magazine release were ambidextrous. Ive tested full-size rifles that werent any more accurate than that. Every MCX also comes with an ambidextrous safety selector and magazine release for righties and lefties. Following the success of its initial collaboration with Vertx, Premier Body Armor announces its continued partnership. The Sig Virtus has these possible configurations: 300 Blackout: Barrel Lengths 6.75", 9", and 16" 5.56mm : Barrel Lengths 11.5" and 16" The Virtus is the more flexible platform, but there is nothing wrong with the Rattler. I got the email also Bio. Ready to go where-ever it's needed, the MCX Rattler has a thin, foldable stock for easy concealment and stowage. The MCX can be switched from 5.56mm NATO to 300 Blackout and back again, and users can easily install new barrels, handguards and stocks as needed. Definitely looking at the Sig, but having a hard time forking over that much money. To extend it, just give the brace a vigorous yank. As to the tale of the tape, the gun has a 10.5-inch cold hammer-forged barrel (1:7 twist) and comes in at a very agile 5.8 pounds. At the rear of the receiver, youll see the Maxim Defense SCW brace. Im a lefty so the gas hits me right in the face. There was another location for a QD sling from either side at the rear of the receiver just below where the buffer tube was attached. Taylors & Company FS Tactical 1911: Now in 10mm! You are using an out of date browser. There is longer rifling in the barrel of the handgun currently on my hip than there is in this PDW. The SCAR 15P is chambered for 5.56 NATO and, with its 7.5-inch barrel, is the most compact SCAR to date. The Saint is one of the most user-friendly versions of this user-friendly platform. The $1000 CMMG Mk4T may still use the M1 buttstock and grip, but the 416 stainless-steel barrel offered a 1:7 twist on the inside and a bead-blast finish on the outside. To change the shooters perspective and in effect reduce target area, we staggered the targets. Their latest addition is the Saint Edge PDW AR pistol, and Im sure it will get its large slice of the AR pie. Its perfect for indoor situations where 25 yards is a long shot and overpenetration is a concern. That said, most of the 6.75" barrels shoot supers unsuppressed just fine. With the brace collapsed, it is just 18.75 inches long. This eliminates the crack that coincides with the bullet leaving the muzzle caused by the projectile breaking the sound barrier. The Rattler is, essentially, as. I love my Evo .. You must log in or register to reply here. Measuring Performance A PDW is not a rifle. Also, unlike the HK MP7 and FN P90, you can actually buy a Springfield Armory PDW. The test shooter said he was on target inside the A-zone, but the trigger didnt respond. We liked this because it simply wipes clean, making it easy to keep track of debris buildup and wear. MCX-SPEAR . It provides added backpressure for reliable cycling. I've shot the Saint a few times and my local lgs and I like the trigger, feel and ergonomics. We think mounting accessories in the arc between the top rail and the sides shows a lot of promise for easy control. Provided for advice, just in case you talk yourself into buying one. I put a ton of ammunition through this rifle, and everything workedtypical of the MCX series. Keep Reading. Its solid visual form led us to refer to it as a forend rather than a handguard. Sounds like an excuse to get another can like a Dead Air Sandman-S. +1 this is what I ordered for my Rattler. I'm looking for advice on whether to buy a Sig Sauer MCX or the Springfield Armory Saint (new free float version). Between the friendly trigger, which our shooter was able to stage as we moved from target to target, and some adrenalin, we had added one full circuit, even if all 15 shots werent perfect. A PDW is not a rifle. The top rail was not really functional as a connection point, but it provided venting. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more. Subsonic ammunition, as its name suggests, pushes bullets below the speed of sound. The Gunfighter grip offers an extended backstrap to shield the web of the hand and the knurled side panels that provided excellent traction. The recoil was manageable with the hottest loads, and it was a pleasure to shoot with subsonics. I was a big Sig fan , After buyig the 1st Tread M400 , I had the Tread 5.56 Pistol on my list , then the Tread 716I - .308 AR-10 , But when I went to buy the tread M400 5.56 pistol I looked at the Springfield Saint 300 Black out . The Black Hills 60-grain V-Max rounds produced 0.8-inch-wide groups, and the 77-grain SIG Sauer rounds printed 0.9-inch-wide groups. check out the, Welcome to the Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association Forum, we hope you like what you find here and we strongly encourage you to. check out the. While the plastic handguard and the buttstock showed a little bit of play, fit and function of the more important parts of the M400 Classic were exceptional. We also liked the bead-blast finish on the barrel. Featuring a 5.5" PDW barrel, the MCX platform has never been more compact or accessible. (Tie) B&T .45 2. Two apertures were supplied, but the larger aperture was too open, in our opinion. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Privacy Policy. June 22nd, 2017, 09:15 PM #2. . Its very handy. Spring loaded at rest, there was a platform on each side that released the sight instantaneously to its vertical position. I have not shot the Tread, I have handled and inspected it though. I really liked the Blue TS2 ,so in the end she was getting one for me for a surprise for my birthday . But thats not really new, either. Springfield incorporates some nice accessories from Reptilia Corp. like the CQG pistol grip, which has a more vertical angle than the standard AR grip. I was at a gun expo local set up by or LGS where all the repp's come and its a shoot day . Both companies have reputations for occasional issues with their QC, but Sig certainly produces a higher tier product overall. Now we've got Springfield's PDW in a similarly sized envelope, namely albeit chambered in 5.56 NATO. To carry the Rattler discreetly, I used Eberlestocks Combat Office Brief, which represents a typical messenger bag, as well as several other covert packs in my inventory, including some camera bags. The SIG MCX Rattler is an incredibly handy rifle thats easy to conceal. SA ars get a lot of shit from people but it has been a really good rifle. then they had the new CZ 75 Tactical Sport 2 Blue in $1,699 . The base of the grip was hinged to expose a storage space that was water resistant, thanks to a rubber gasket. Filter SIG MCX . They said nothing as short as the rattler. I'm curious what kind of accuracy you are going to see out of that thing. It uses a specialized upper receiver that is designed to be as compact as possible. What we came up with was three AR-15s with upgrades that distinguished them from more traditional models. And yet, accuracy from the bench was on par with our other test carbines. I got my hands on the SBR variant, which features a skeletonized stock that folds flat against the left side of the receiver without obstructing the controls. Detent at the safety was heavy and secure without any rough edges. SAINT ARs come in a range of sizes and calibers. For more information, please see our Thanks for opening my eyes. Instead of a GI-pattern charging handle, the PDW sports Springfields midsize charging handle, which is substantially larger than the GI model. Starting in 2009, Advanced Armament Corporation (AAC), in cooperation with Remington Defense, took J.D. The PDW with the Hate Brake produced far less flash and noise than a 16-inch-barreled AR equipped with a traditional muzzlebrake. Its also rated for rounds up to the .300 Winchester Magnum, so it wont have issues with higher-pressure 300 Blackout loads. As far as apples to apples, do your research and see for yourself that you will get slightly better product with a Springfield compared to a sig, better coatings on barrel, BCG (both melonite) and a Nickel boron coated trigger. Knowing this, I still was dubious when I picked up the PDW from my local FFL. I used two suppressors with the Rattler. To order a copy and subscribe, visitoutdoorgroupstore.com. Target right showed five A-zone shots. 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What surprised me as much as the complete reliability was how soft-shooting the PDW was. Now, we all know stripped down versions just aren't going to cut it, so after adding a Trijicon MRO, SIG SRD 762 QD can, a Magpul vertical grip, a Parker Mountain Machines BCD, and don't forget a fully-loaded magazine of 220 grain subsonic rounds, we have ourselves a stout 9.4 pound setup. For a company many people thought was years late to the AR party, Springfield Armory has done an amazing job in seizing a substantial percentage of the AR-15 marketplace, and theyre not slowing down. The art of shooting groups from support is about being patient. On a full-size rifle or carbine, I think the relieved magazine well of the Saint Edge looks a bit small, but on this build it looks just right. Nice Sig collection BET7, And I also play the field , I really like my Black Rain Ordnance 5.56 , I would like to add a couple more Black Rains to my collection . No problems except for the gas blowback. One by-product of this arrangement was an extension of the lower portion of the bolt lock/release lever. Rattler was built to be fired primarily unsuppressed, with the ability to be suppressed, if needed. So much so that we almost took to calling it a three-stage trigger. For more information on the SIG MCX Rattler, please visit SigSauer.com. However, moving to the Barnes, Hornady and Lehigh Defense rounds changed things. It has a pretty decent barrel and is reliable, so I can recommend it as a solid choice. This is why the gun world is awash in top-notch 300 Blackout pistols. Pushing the SIG Sauer 77-grain OTM rounds to an average velocity of 2440 fps, the SIG Sauer ammunition, marked Match Grade Rifle, was still nevertheless well below the 2750 fps printed on the box. I bought a Tread on a whim. Modern PDWs are often designed to be able to penetrate soft body armor with armor-piercing (AP) ammo. There was, however, a relief on each side of the handguard about 2.5 inches ahead of the receiver for attaching a quick detach (QD) button-style sling loop. I actually sold my Sig m400 patrol 5.56 , And My Sig P320 . The only spot on the Rattler is its trigger. During our action tests, we found the fixed front sight a little distracting, even though we had it aligned (co-witnessed) with our Romeo4 red-dot sight. It will likely go through a threat up close (given no contact with bone), but most of its work is done before exiting. We think this made the trigger a little more user friendly in that there seemed to be more time for the shooter to completely refine a shot. The SIG MCX in a discrete platform featuring a thin, durable folding stock and a 5.5" barrel with PDW upper. I fired the Rattler off-hand from 10 and 15 yards with the earlier test loads and a few others, including Winchesters 150-grain Deer Season XP ammunition and Noslers 220-grain BTs. The Black Hills 77-grain OTM was best, producing 0.8-inch-wide groups, and the SIG Sauer 77-grain OTM ammunition produced an average five-shot group measuring 0.9 inch across. With the stock folded, the gun is only 16 inches long, making it the shortest 300 Blackout weapon on the market. Keeping all the shots inside the A-zone was important, but for our purposes we wanted to know what characteristics were helping or hindering the shooter. I would deploy this as a dedicated entry rifle in a heartbeat. I'm like seriously I could of got the checkmate . At 1,900 fps, youll still get a good permanent wound cavity, some temporary cavity and the ability to defeat armor in most cases. MSRP: $1,100; springfield-armory.com. I got it for around 900 dollars a little over a year ago. "If I'd known I'd live this long I'd have taken better care of myself.". Additionally, given the use of heavier bullets (200-grains plus and thereabouts), the loads have a smaller powder charge compared to their supersonic counterparts. They are going to err on the side of caution by telling you they are incompatible but in this situation they are right. The trigger was forgiving in any situation, and construction was first rate. Wilson Combat SFX9 5-Inch Solid Frame 9mm Pistol: First Look. This is the MCX Rattler. The gas block is pinned in place. SIG MCX Rattler SBR . The Rattler has a one in five twist rate. and the had the CZ Parrot checkmate 9mm $3,299. But we loved the buttpad and the overall contour of the stock. At that time the price on that gun was $1,800. I have builds from BCM, Springfield, Noveske and PSA. My wife said I'm going to buy me a new gun which one do you think the Blue or Orange . Barrel-twist rate was 1:8. The fit between the top and bottom end of the CMMG Mk4T was admirably tight, yet the takedown pin was easy to operate. 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I'm ashamed I even own one let alone was considering buying the Saint. Wow just read the article on TTAG. Interestingly, Sig is one of the gunmakers that subscribe to faster-than-usual twist rates for 300 Blackout1:5. I just started a new thread under Sig Rifles to cover Vrtus Patrol. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Compare. However, the company Match Duo, with a 5.5 break, does a much better job of getting the most out of the pistol. The free-floated handguard offered Keymod machining on three sides, and the Picatinny top rail extended 11 inches from the receiver. Brand: Springfield. Thats as short as ARs get. Ive also thought the same thing about 20-round magazines in a full-size AR. ". I am reminded that short barrels are inherently more accurate as there is less flexing during the recoil cycle. The first was the SilencerCo Omega 9K, which is only 4.7 inches long and weighs 7.2 ounces. General guidelines dictate a 1:7 twist rate (there are also the odd 1:5 examples) for subsonic 300 Blackout and a 1:8 or slower for supersonic. The AR pistol is a platform of many uses. Somy wife and i was having lunch with the Sig rep. and I asked about the .308 maybe coming out in the tread And he said soon which it did . Here are my personal Pros & Cons of the Saint Victor (FEATURELESS, CA Compliant version) Pros: - Comes with basic flip-up sights ready to go out of box - Full length M-Lok rail slots (TREAD seems to stop 8/10 of the way from the front) - Lighter Cons: - $1400+tax - 2 port MB rather than M400's 3 port (any difference in felt recoil?)